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Joel Did Nothing Wrong - The Importance Of Ambiguity 

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Sometimes the questions you ask in a story are more important than the answers, and sometimes a character's actions are neither right nor wrong. In this video, I want to take a look at the value of ambiguity in storytelling, and some examples of where it's been done well.

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18. 02. 2021

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The Critical Drinker
The Critical Drinker Před 2 měsíci
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PlayStation Vision
PlayStation Vision Před 3 dny
@Tad Dad Left Behind DLC gay stuff was tacked in after Neil discovered Anita Sarkeesian.
Tad Dad
Tad Dad Před 4 dny
Okay so i want to point you, that they confirmed that ellie waz the gay in the previous game in that dlc where we see her life prior to joel and the infection. She kissed agirl and she liked it. But you got a major point in the rest of it. The ambiguity was eliminated in the sequel though i would note there ARE some things you were kinda wrong about. The game very much condemns joel for his actions, but not his intentions. His choices were human but selfish, and it cost everyone much in the end. However, you are 100% right about last of us 2, that they lost almost all the ambiguity. They should not have made it 'oh yes this woulda 100% worked' and show that it was a desperation on the part of the fireflies. However i 100% do think that if Ellie got full confirmation she would be enraged by what he did. She went along with the lie, but she has survivor's guilt. Her girlfriend/bestfriend died from the fungus right in front of her. We don't see it with our own eyes, cause they were still using their fuckin brains back then, but it was implied both in the main game and confirmed in the dlc. The biggest mistake of the fireflies was that they did not give ellie the choice. she didn't even wake up from her almost drowning to being in that car. They drugged her immediately and she would have died not knowing if she made it. They robbed Ellie of the choice... But we the audience knows that her choice was a forgone conclusion. She would sacrifice herself for even the slimmest chance of creating that cure. I don't think joel woulda even gone on that rampage if Ellie could have been the one to tell him she was gonna die, but she was more than willing to accept that fate to put an end to this. A tearful goodbye between them perhaps, desperation, but then acceptance. One daughter died for nothing, just an act of cruelty, the other dies to try and undo the damage done unto the world. The issue is... the rest of the game and how its set up. I feel as if killing joel in the first few hours was a mistake, especially as he has clearly been doing nothing for years, not going back to his crueler ways. No, what shoulda happened was that his brother should have gotten hurt/killed. No, just hurt, if severely hurt. And of course Ellie get the shit beat outta her. And this sets joel off on a rampage. He goes to hunt down Abby and the rest, and of course Ellie goes after him. And then we just keep on finding one atrocity after the other, done by Joel's hand. Fuck have the pregnant lady not killed by Ellie, but by joel. And used it to frame Abby as further enraged as her friends are picked off one by one. Ellie was his redemption, but she can easily be the thing that causes him to relapse. Joel would 100% destroy everything for ellie.
Helen Line
Helen Line Před měsícem
@Snapdragon 9600 1: Because fungal infection doesn't work the same way virus's do. A spinal tap or brain tissue extraction is needed. A channel called Roanoke gaming explains it very well. 2: There probably are more immune people. They're obviously rare though. Given that they're probably hiding that fact, they're dead, or they don't know because they haven't been bitten yet to know if they're immune or not.
PlayStation Vision
PlayStation Vision Před měsícem
Joel allowing the death of Ellie is a zillion times more evil than not providing a cure.
Mr. Pairdoy
Mr. Pairdoy Před měsícem
Sit
Meggsie
Meggsie Před 4 hodinami
Back to the "vaccine" plot line, even if they succeeded.. do you really think that it would fix the world? They wouldn't be able to mass produce it, plus vaccines expire so what you make needs to be used within a certain time frame. These horrible human factions that include slavery, cannibalism, human sacrifice, and so on won't just revert to our way of life just because they can't become zombies. The human brutality will persist with or without zombies because people who even remember how to live like we do are the departing generation- AKA the Last of Us. It was horrible that Ellie was ever given the hope that she could save humanity... But also- I don't think that TLOU2 ever put a final judgement on Joel, I could see how people think that since both Abby and Ellie do cast judgement on him- and it gets twisted fast because in their society you have to be judge, jury, and executioner if you want someone to pay for their crimes... but the game itself? It almost exclusively portrays Joel in a tender, loving way emphasizing how much he cares about Ellie, how sweet he is to Abby before she turns on him, the beauty in his life by way of wood carving and music. But it doesn't shy away from the devastation his actions caused Abby and others. From Abby's perspective it wouldn't be understandable. It wouldn't be, "oh well you were a panicked father figure." It's only understandable based on your affiliation bias. And the ending fits the same theme of the first. If Ellie killed Abby- the game would be casting judgement in Joel's favor by saying he didn't deserve to die for massacring all those people. By not killing Abby and also not having Abby kill Ellie- who is justified by their actions is left to the audience to answer. I'm personally hoping for a TLOU 3 with a hollowed out Ellie who has become a legend for her immunity coz she don't give a damn anymore with a plot that finally answers the question: Will she die alone? This has become one of my favorite series of all time because it's literally like a modern western!! :D
Logan
Logan Před 4 hodinami
I mean...it was selfish what Joel did at the end of TLOU1. Joel only cares about his family. From the very first part of the game, Joel drives past a group of stranded people, refusing to help. Because he only cares about his family. So, yeah, It was completely consistent with Joel's character. Why do you people think Joel should just get away with what he did consequence free? Like Ellie should just understand what he did, even though it went 100% against everything Ellie fought for? Even though Joel basically murdered the closest person Ellie has known besides Joel? Even though if Ellie had been conscious, she would have willingly sacrificed herself for the cure? The only reason Joel was able to get away with murdering everyone and escaping with Ellie is because Ellie was unconscious the whole time.
Phreak Azoith
Phreak Azoith Před 10 hodinami
Ambiguity made Pan's Labyrinth great as well. All the protagonists and their decisions are ambiguous and questionable and even the world they are in is what? real, illusion, both?.
Reicher Wallace
Reicher Wallace Před 11 hodinami
I never even finished the last of us. Couldn't stealth to save my life which ended up being too literal. I gave up and decided to just watch my best friend finish it instead.
Ian Herrick
Ian Herrick Před 11 hodinami
Ellie’s gay, btw
Peter Rabbit
Peter Rabbit Před 12 hodinami
If you like ambiguous mind-fuck stories you should read The Watcher by Charles Maclean. One story, two interpretations - it's a work of genius, a psychological fantasy set in the real world. Brilliant.
Leopold Taylor
Leopold Taylor Před 12 hodinami
If Neil and Naughty Dog truly believe what they did with this game is right, they wouldn't have felt the need to hide it (Abby was nowhere to be seen in initial trailers) or censor those who talk about the leaks by copyright striking.
KG Jung
KG Jung Před 13 hodinami
We know Ellie knew that Joel's story of what happened at the hospital was suspect. Otherwise, why would she demand Joel absolutely swear everything he told her was true? You don't do that unless you at least have grave doubts. The game portrays Ellie as having a well developed BS detector. It's one of the reasons she's survived. She knew Joel was lying and that he was more than capable of doing that.
mackinawey E
mackinawey E Před 23 hodinami
Tlou2 second part should have been the story
TooToo246
TooToo246 Před dnem
Allergies are increasingly on the rise as time passes, I believe, bcuz of vaccinations...each generation gets more vaccines than the previous, and more allergies as a result. This whole Covid thing exposed the medical and drug industry for the gian lie that it is. It made an anti vaxer out of me, and really made me reflect on how I used to laugh at anti vaxers back in the day!....Vaccines in general are a terrible idea, and should only be used as an absolute last ditch effort. Now a days, people get more vaccines than they eat smarties, and it's causing all sorts of problems. Chronic fatigue, mental fog, allergies, autoimmune diseases, infertility, nervous system problems, anxiety, depression, and yes, autism!
Channel Name
Channel Name Před dnem
Ellie was ALWAYS GAY. That is a fact and should not be an argument for anyone when talking about the part 1 masterpiece and the cancerous tumor of part 2.And part 3. I'm not even gonna try it. After 2 I'm done. Part 1 I can't play now because of how BAD 2 is.
Channel Name
Channel Name Před dnem
This is why TLoU2 is terrible. We got to see the bad guys side... Yup, they are still the bad guys and now joel is dead and this game is woke trash
Tom Hill
Tom Hill Před dnem
I had a conversation with someone who was so opioniated about this game, even though he had never played it. He didn't even own a PS4 but thought he could tell people how bad it was because of the whole trans gender character it contains. Then he procceded to tell me that it made no sense for the trans kid and his sister to leave their community. I had to tell him that the trans kid's community was populated by religious nut jobs who were going to kill him. In response to that I got "aarrrggghhh." After asking if he had played it, he said "I have seen it on CSshows and that was enough." So CE the game is over 20 hours long, I don't know how he could possibly have watched a game for 20 hours he so detested. That's where the conversation ended because I don't debate with opinionated people who have never played a game but tell me I was wrong for liking it, even though I finished it. Apparently I was playing it wrong and all I needed to do was listen to other people's opinions and watch it on Twitch or CSshows.
Furtalance_x
Furtalance_x Před dnem
The second game was aboslute shit. Honestly. Regret the day they decided to make it. Honestly
TexanTube
TexanTube Před dnem
Part 2 seems to push a theme of LGBT when in reality, anyone being gay is extremely rare and only slightly outnumbers the number of American billionaires, which is somewhere in the neighborhood of 3.3M
Brandybuck
Brandybuck Před dnem
Hang on. While I agree ambiguity is a compelling story tool I have to ask. Is it THAT upsetting to you that Ellie is gay or that they explore Ellie's feelings about her life or death being given purpose? Its not melodrama, its the natural conclusion to a decision made by Joel. Ellie grew up in a world where nothing mattered, people died and it only stayed bad, so when she finds out her life, her death could mean something, she is pissed Joel stole that from her, of course she would be mad. As for her being Gay; In one of your other videos you talk about not forcing diversity on already established characters, so why does it warrant sarcastic repeating that Ellie is Gay? (the first game shes 14, her orientation isnt a focus of the story, but it is hinted that there might be a crush in the side story "Left Behind" )She is a character without previous establishment who is representing a sexual orientation that exists. Im not sure why this warrants repeated sarcasm as if the creators are pandering. I found LoU2 disappointing as well, but it had its moments of genuinely good storytelling. I agree with some of the sentiments you put forth in this video just not sure that your messaging is entirely consistent.
Izumi kajiura
Izumi kajiura Před dnem
He will In the Remake of TLOU 1.
Asanda
Asanda Před 2 dny
Let's not forget that turning Ellie Gay prevents her from having offspring which have a high possibility of being immune to the fungus. And could start new generations in the future where the fungus is basically just another harmless microbe
BlazeHeartPanther
BlazeHeartPanther Před 2 dny
And now they have announced that they will be remaking the first game with Neil overseeing it and they are going to face f%#k the crap out of the story to kingdom come XP
BlazeHeartPanther
BlazeHeartPanther Před 2 dny
@Sir Prize But if they turn Ellie black, wouldn't that contradict Ellie in the sequel since she's white? But then again, they'll probably beg Sony to remake Last of Us 2 if were not so lucky XD
Sir Prize
Sir Prize Před 2 dny
I can see it now: Ellie is now going to be black and Joel will be a southern racist who gets his ass kicked by a girl half his size. Truly the high caliber story telling we can expect from a studio like Disobedient Canine. Game of the year 🎉
Rocket Man
Rocket Man Před 4 dny
I personally think a remake is a good idea. Graphics of the second game. As long as they don't touch the fucking story at all.
Negi
Negi Před dnem
They're going to rewrite the fuck out of it.
Henry
Henry Před 4 dny
I'm pretty sure everybody's just mad about Joel's death.
Henry
Henry Před 4 dny
@crazyinsane500 I was really joking. TLOU2 was a polarizing title for sure. I just disagree with anybody calling it a "bad game" or "poorly written."
crazyinsane500
crazyinsane500 Před 4 dny
Yup, and everyone's just mad about Donte's hair. Ignorance will save Naughty Dog! Just like it saved Ninja Theory's DMC.
Karl brocklesby
Karl brocklesby Před 4 dny
Brilliant
mfmf100
mfmf100 Před 5 dny
Interesting. Never saw the Joker but I’ve read dnd seen American Psycho; seems like the plot and ideas are similar.
Jacob Garvey
Jacob Garvey Před 6 dny
If Joel had let them kill Ellie we would’ve never gotten a part two. I kind of wish that he did let her die
Beggar42
Beggar42 Před 7 dny
The point I got from The Last of Us 2 is that there's an absolute morality, external to the people involved and nothing they do can in any way influence the way things turn out. If that external moral source says killing lots of people for selfish reasons is good, then you get away with it and row off into the sunset, if it says it's wrong, you end up with no girlfriend and no fingers.
Angel Armenta
Angel Armenta Před 8 dny
Tlou is one my favorite games I ever played. I can’t believe how much I hated the 2nd one and just carried on to get revenge for Joel. It never came and I never wanted to play as Abby. R.I.P Joel.
AlienOnTheInternet
AlienOnTheInternet Před 8 dny
“Characters can be gay but expressing it or showing them doing gay things is too far bc I’m not mature enough to handle that type of reality that gays exist and behave like normal people ”
The Silence
The Silence Před 9 dny
True story - I once gave kids with "nut allergies" nuts without telling them, and nothing happened. Then days later, told them they may have eaten nuts, even though they hadn't. Within minutes, they were having "reactions" and one kid worked himself up so much, he was hyperventilating and going patchy and red. Psychosomatic medical problems are real. Allergies, not so much.
kubekzpiciem
kubekzpiciem Před 9 dny
Well I mean no surprise there, LOU2 was omega woke, "women" power trip with crap writing.
AlienOnTheInternet
AlienOnTheInternet Před 8 dny
“If the character isn’t a straight white man then it’s woke”
zero-to-hero
zero-to-hero Před 11 dny
It all started after they shot the gorilla in a zoo!
Elite Mook
Elite Mook Před 11 dny
Here's a key fact everyone seems to overlook. Ellie didn't know that the fireflies were going to kill her. While at the university Ellie outright asks joel if he thinks getting the cure from her will hurt and Joel responded by saying he thinks they'll just have to draw some blood. Ellie didn't correct him because she didn't know better! Marline never told her the truth! So when Ellie was incapacitated and Marline asserts to joel that Ellie would want to die and threatens joels life when he questioned her, Joel had all the justification in the world to think that she was killing Ellie against her wishes and engage papa wolf mode. If he did anything wrong it was not stating as such.
Donelaitis
Donelaitis Před 11 dny
Love your videos but completely disagree with your analysis of the Last of Us 2. At which point in that game did the creators retcon Joel’s choice to save Ellie as the actions of a “bloodthirsty psychopath?” At which point in the story did the game lecture us about how his choice was the wrong choice? I didn’t get any of that from the sequel. The only lesson I got from it is that actions have consequences. Joel did a lot of bad shit in his life and it all eventually caught up to him. He didn’t die like a beloved character should because no character in any of these games dies that way. Think about how many human characters we decimated in these games - Joel died the same way. It’s consistent with the universe. The other characters don’t give a damn about our connection to Joel, and nor should they.
g well66v2
g well66v2 Před 11 dny
5:40 Based on how Druckman carried on with TLOU2 I suspect he thought he was giving players a definitively immoral character with zero ambiguity in TLOU 1. Any ambiguity was accidental and when Neil realized the audience was able to see ambiguity it infuriated him, driving his decisions in TLOU 2, including the decision to have a clone of himself in the game to spit on Joel.
Loaf
Loaf Před 11 dny
I like TLOU2
Joe Blow
Joe Blow Před dnem
Ok
IceMaster972
IceMaster972 Před 3 dny
So do I. And a lot of other people do too. For some reason the internet is convinced that everyone hates it.
Zesty Lemon Zach
Zesty Lemon Zach Před 12 dny
You should sneak "ellie's gay by the way" somewhere in a totally unrelated video.
Craig Mercer
Craig Mercer Před 15 dny
That fact that the Fireflies lied to Joel would justify his actions.
ZergS4uc3
ZergS4uc3 Před 16 dny
i very much disagree that joel was in the moral wrong, the doctors at the instillation had killed many before ellie so really can you trust those who have killed so many to save many more? regardless we all agree they let success go to their heads and they fucked up royally
I BraveHeart
I BraveHeart Před 16 dny
I’d say let her decide whether or not she wants to sacrifice herself
crazyinsane500
crazyinsane500 Před 16 dny
Given how she spent 5 years sitting around doing nothing, not even submitting non-lethal/non-invasive samples to be studied, nor considered going to FEDRA who would be the only other group with the technical capabilities to research her immunity, we have an implicit acknowledgement of her true feelings on the matter.
spicy toast
spicy toast Před 17 dny
6:50 but he did deserve it, no one, not even the game says he is a psychopath, plus the context doesn't even matter, what he did was wrong even if we did understand why he did it. I also fail to realize how that's contrived, this is completely in line with Ellie's character... Like... COMPLETELY in line. Lastly, Joel was not disrespected in tlou2, I would say the opposite, the ending shows that Ellie has finally forgiven him.
TheJasonaut
TheJasonaut Před 19 dny
Love this, so true. Forgot how much I appreciated the ending of The Last of Us. And yeah, some people need to stop trying to 'figure things out' so much in entertainment media, especially when its pretty clear that you are surpassing the level of thought the creators put into it. Debates and discussion on questions left unanswered are fine and fun sometimes, but like, guys, sometimes you can just *not* have an answer, its okay.
M.M
M.M Před 20 dny
Your title is a contradiction
Josh McDaniel
Josh McDaniel Před 20 dny
One of the best games EVER made
Sitcom Christian
Sitcom Christian Před 20 dny
Matthew 28:1-2 And when they had assembled with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sufficient sum of money to the soldiers and said, "Tell people, 'His disciples came by night and stole Him away while we were asleep.'
Julia
Julia Před 20 dny
Im really sad yall didnt like tlou2.. i actually loved it. Idc about neils intentions or whatever, i thought it was a wonderful, beautiful game.
Joe Blow
Joe Blow Před dnem
Ok
PurpleRanger
PurpleRanger Před 5 dny
It was the worst game naughty dog ever made
Jimmy Ray
Jimmy Ray Před 21 dnem
Did they intend it to be a moral conundrum that Ellie is gay and will never pass her immunity to future generations?
The Survivor's Sanctuary
Joel literally did nothing wrong. He protected his daughter from what was essentially a ritualistic sacrfice to the gods of chucklefucks. The sacrifice of his daughter was _supposed to_ sAvE tHe WoRlD, and si Joel thinks he did a bad; but no one was ever really given a choice. The fireflies were the only ones who made a choice, and it was to ignore everyone else's autonomy. This decision forced Joel to act. Joel did the only thing he could do, because the only other option was to put a bullet in his brain. If Ellie choose to die, then Joel might live; but he had no chance at survival with what the fireflies did. Joel just defended himself and his family. If that damned humanity, blame the dumbasses who forced a father to watch his daughter die for their: "moral superiority". Joel is wrong. He's not guilty, and I'm glad the fireflies got what they got.
dani ortega
dani ortega Před 21 dnem
If i tell you if you would sacrifice one person to save humanity, most people would say ok, but if i tell you its some one you just met and grew to like most people would say its a sacrifice and are still willing to do it. Then i show you the struggles they went through and how the bond between them evolved and the love and experiences they had together... then most people would side with joel. I did, at least.
Backspace Ninja
Backspace Ninja Před 22 dny
You need to pass 1M subs!! You deserve it.
Bruce Wayne
Bruce Wayne Před 22 dny
Hey did you guys know that Ellie’s gay?
Benjamin Davis
Benjamin Davis Před 23 dny
I can’t believe how successful the sequel was. It is one of the most embarrassing moments in gaming history and the majority of me “peers” have no clue it happened
Benjamin Davis
Benjamin Davis Před 20 dny
@Mateo Reyes I’d accept that explanation, except the plot was leaked weeks ahead of time and we knew it was garbage and still it sold like crazy
Mateo Reyes
Mateo Reyes Před 21 dnem
A lot of people just wanted to have more adventures with Joel and Ellie and waited more that 5 years, but when the people see what was the game, well, the sells go down the next two months the game came out
mdbigboi191
mdbigboi191 Před 23 dny
F Neil Druckman and the p.c. movement.
Matt Osbun
Matt Osbun Před 25 dny
With Joker and Bladerunner, it's not that the movie doesn't need to provide answers. The movies *shouldn't* provide answers. They're both movies about uncertainty and what you believe. Answering the big questions would have undermined the very point of both movies.
Matt Osbun
Matt Osbun Před 25 dny
Mass Effect 3 is almost 10 years old, and I bet if you go to the Mass Effect subreddit you can still find people debating the morality of curing the Genophage. Not a lot of game companies have the courage to write situations like that anymore.
J Mace
J Mace Před 25 dny
Save 1 and doom the rest of the world to a shite sequel. Good going, Joel 👎
Mateo Reyes
Mateo Reyes Před 21 dnem
The world is already doomed and full of cannibals, bandits, rapist, etc......you really think that all that people are going to leave the killing and stealing?
Christopher Mueller
Christopher Mueller Před 26 dny
This will not be popular. Drinker, you are extremely talented at breaking down media and showing us plebs what's underneath the rock that is current Hollywood. I love watching your videos. Except, I don't. Your personal mission of denigrating diversity and gender equality at every opportunity, is wearing more than just a bit thin. We live in a society (ha ha ha) that is embracing these things, and this is good. Is Hollywood making some mis-steps along the way? Yes. But when has it not? Every time I watch one of your videos, I walk away informed, and feeling icky. Icky, because I feel like I just watched Glen Beck fighting a culture war, when all I wanted is to know why Terminator sucked. If pointing fingers is your thing, than here's one. Your reviews of media before you started acting drunk in your delivery, are mediocre at best, but once you lean into the stereotype of a drunk Scotsman, well that's when your channel really took off. No judgements here... use what the good lord gave you, but maybe lay off your 'scared white man being replaced' routine for a video or two. Anyway,........
Joe Blow
Joe Blow Před dnem
Just commenting so I can be here when this causes an argument.
Daniel Tiger
Daniel Tiger Před 26 dny
Ok. Say I've always pondered about how to try and create a more logical narrative for TLOU 2, whilst trying to keep the theme of revenge but also keeping the nuance of the first game and the "rivalry" of Abbey and Ellie. Firstly, to save the fucking pacing of this game. Abbey should be playable, first. We grow to like her, understand her troubles and flaws and understand that she, like many others, is on an unforgiving world were there are no innocent people anymore. Good people sure, but every 'good person' in this case has killed for whatever reason. She then finds out her friends are being hunted, then herself, and we the players may not know, but they do. (This is so the majority of her playable section could remain the same with minimal changes). We then finally meet Ellie, who is revealed to be hunting us, we don't know why she's been ruthlessly tearing apart the city to find her, then we cut to her section of the game. Not only will this actually be a subversion of expectation, this would actually make more emotive sense when we see Abbey murder Joel. Giving an credence to the idea of no innocent people. For the Revenge side of things, I couldn't stand that Abbey is the Doctors daughter who Joel murdered, it was to me, way to basic and fucking cliché to say the least. So I thought, who else would have a grudge against Joel?... Then I had an idea. What if Abbey was the daughter of David? (You know, our fav character! Rapey cannibal Davy) Now, why do I say this? Because, keeping in line with the theme of Fathers and Daughters, Abbey being under the impression that Joel brutally killed David would make sense, I mean, granted Ellie and a lot of teens have killed at that age in the world of TLOU but hey, one can assume. This, to me really hits the nail on the head of the theme of Revenge. No matter how horrific David was, he's still Abbey's dad. And it's not like Joel is particularly redeemable in a few circumstances either. But we the player and Ellie knows that Joel didn't kill David. To me, not only does this make the greater emotional catalyst for Ellie's vengeance, it also adds an ACTUAL REASON OF GUILT. Joel being brutally murdered because she killed someone? And that murderer believing he did it? That wouldn't sit well would it? Now after meeting Abbey again in confrontation, she reveals that she killed David, and that Abbey killed the wrong man. Where the story would go from there, I haven't quite decided or put much thought into but to me, this is the Lynch Pin between the two girls. Both of them want to/have avenged their fathers and were both justified to do so. Except, there was a mistake, a human error, one wrong decision that resulted in the deaths of many more. (See that? That's nuance, what the first game had in spades) Not only do I think this would actually give gravitas and relatability to both Ellie and Abbey, I also think it would elevate Abbey to a level of sympathetic antagonist that she was horribly forced to be and essentially denied due to the WEIRD AS FUCK WRITING. I say this because in this little experiment of mine, this would hopefully mirror the guilt and emotional drive of Ellie. Think about it. You kill a man, get your revenge for the death of your (deplorable) father. To then not only have the repercussions of all your friends horrifically hunted and murdered in front of you over the course of a few days to find out it was because YOU killed the WRONG man. Actions have consequences... The idea that revenge is Bad is not a good narrative thread for TLOU. The idea that revenge is Pointless however I think is perfect. Because all it ever results in is the death of so many more. Both deserving and undeserving. The fact this theme is so barley touched on in the game (killing an enemy and hearing a comrade scream their name, an actually wonderful idea and beautiful addition to the game) is imo its biggest downfall. Well, believe it or not. That's the short version of my mental word vomiting. It's a shame our beloved stories and characters are not respected as much as they used to be, instead being used to force ideals and politics into situations and worlds where they just don't matter. There are stories and places for those topics, don't go for 'woke points' at the detriment of your work and the people that love it. Thanks for your time if you read this random viewer, I know require vodka. Go away now...
EnergyGaming230
EnergyGaming230 Před 27 dny
I think a lot of people forget the fact that Joel has experienced the worst in humanity, sacrificing one of the few pure-ish souls left in the world, to make a cure to give to people that are murders, thieves, cannibals, rapist, etc, would’ve been a stupid decision. Not to mention that if a cure was made, I don’t think every group would lay down there guns and join together, if a cure was made, people would fight over it giving it to only there own group. A war would’ve broken out for the vaccine.
Mateo Reyes
Mateo Reyes Před 21 dnem
Exactly People are just to dumb to think that everything will come back to normal without zombies
Tenth Nail
Tenth Nail Před 28 dny
With no offense to the LGBTQIAA2F@E3-HGsquared community... “Ellie’s gay btw” MUST become merch! T-shirts, mugs, fuckin note books. Yes, YES Drinker, the $ is dancing behind my eyelids! 😂😂😂
That1GoldenBoi
That1GoldenBoi Před 28 dny
as a wise man once said "Thank you neil drukmin for making the worst sequel since WW2"
Sercroc
Sercroc Před 28 dny
you should stop drinking, the second game doesn't tell you joel was wrong ,going against the first game, it's just how it is, he was wrong, we know it, he knows it, ellie knows, everybody does, but we still understand why he did it and can forgive him. Come on when he lied to her in the end i knew it was going to go bad, and it did. Also why did you keep bringing up the fact that ellie is lesbian like it's something that's been introduced in the second game?
Sercroc
Sercroc Před 21 dnem
@Mateo Reyes so just because it would take time they should stop? And you can't have anything for everyone, someone will always be left out, should they stop because is not for everyone? Even if they give it to a minority iit's still progress. And it's still a work of fiction, it's important for the cure to be possible, or Joel choice wouldn't have the same weight, wich would kind of ruin the first game, taking out the ambiguity the drinker is talking about in the video. It doesn't matter if in real life you can't get a cure that easily, it's for the story
Mateo Reyes
Mateo Reyes Před 21 dnem
@Sercroc Let's say that they can a cure, but then, how many time and resources will take to make vaccines for EVERYONE in the earth? Just look how are the things with the Covid, we don't have a 100% effective cure even having a lot of countrys with a lot of resources working in that With Luck, the Fireflys would be able to make just one
Sercroc
Sercroc Před 26 dny
@Sir Prize yeah and vaccine are for preventing infection, they just decided for it to work on the fungus. Unless they say they fireflies were wrong in part three that's how it is. What to you mean by raw material? Coulnd't they have brought all the medical supplies they needed to that hospital? They didn't need to extract the brain, they needed the fungus in the brain. Why do you see as joel needs to be punished? It's just joel does A, joel gets B because of A, we all love him but we can't complain if there are conseguences, he knew he fucked up as well, that's why he lied to ellie
Sir Prize
Sir Prize Před 26 dny
@Sercroc do those studies say any about extracting someone’s brain for a vaccine to work? Or the life expectancy for raw materials? What could even had been left in that hospital after 20 years of looting?
Sercroc
Sercroc Před 26 dny
@Sir Prize also just googled it and there are studies on making antifungal vaccines, so it'a videogame, they decided they cna make a vaccine for it, that's it
Sinister Essence 999
The way Joel died was utterly devoid of every form of respect for the character they built. It annoys me that I almost spent 70 dollars on a game that I would’ve dropped within the first few hours
Zach Schmidt
Zach Schmidt Před 29 dny
For me, The Last of Us was a story about finding a way to save the human race, but by the end of your journey, you realize there's nothing left to save. In the end, Joel must choose between preserving his humanity or simply preserving human existence, making the point the latter isn't worth saving without the former.
Wyzai
Wyzai Před 29 dny
I prefer the EFAP version of this dilemma: Do you sacrifice your adopted daughter for a chance at a cure that wouldn't save humanity, but would improve its condition. This version is a trolley problem with the stakes being adoptive daughter or a minimum of several thousand people. There is a fairly obvious morally correct choice. If you disagree then you would probably find it a worthy thought experiment to ask yourself if Hitler would've been right if he did what he did to save someone else.
Илья Трутнев
Илья Трутнев Před měsícem
It would be interesting if PART II also had an ambiguois ending. I doubt that PART II has an ambiguity. Ellie has basically taken Abby from the pillar and has finally forgiven Joel (also has left Abby alive). The only bad thing is that she lost two fingers on the left hand, considering the fast that the has a bracelet in the end which might mean that Ellie and Dina still stay together. There is very little ambiguity in this ending. Full ambiguity would appear if Ellie drowned Abby and then she would be left alone without any hints like a bracelet etc. Even so, in the end, on the farm, she still would have come to forgive Joel. So with all the possible outcomes, she would have forgiven Joel in the end. So this is a tricky case to create ambiguity.
Jack P-W
Jack P-W Před měsícem
I liked the second game
I’m Here
I’m Here Před měsícem
Interesting fact: the last of us 2 was never planned by naughty dog but people were so desperate to destroy a masterpiece that they demanded a sequel
T. Drake
T. Drake Před měsícem
I really don’t understand what he means when he says Joel’s decision was retconned to be that way. Yes the ambiguity was lost but that’s only because it was contextualized. Joel was the only person who knew about what he did at the end of the game, and the first person Joel talked to about it, Tommy, said he made the right choice but that’s only because Tommy had all the details. Abby didn’t know any of that, and all she knows is that this guy killed her father and now Ellie knows about it too. It wasn’t retconned to be singularly evil, it was just shown to us from different perspectives.
James Mercer
James Mercer Před měsícem
Did you know that in the remastered version they took out an audio recording at the firefly base where they say that they have done DOZENS of operations removing the immunity tumor just to fail. So Joel was right not to let them murder Ellie. Also if it did work how the fuck would they have distributed it? You have people killing and eating eachother, people killing everyone in sight, and the government that hates their terrorist organization.
Cypher スネーク
Cypher スネーク Před měsícem
There's a video called this game was robbed, in which the creator of the video says that ghost of tsushima was worthy of GOTY but it was robbed from him, in a way he is right. Because tlou2 might've took GOTY but it didn't sound right for any of us. After all people didn't like this game's story, some people said that tlou2 is GOTY because the gameplay and graphics are amazing, but in my opinion i think this statement is stupid, see many games might have a bad story but still be good... games like devil may cry for example, the story sucks but the game is still good because the gameplay was great. Now u might say that this is the exact case for tlou2 then why isn't tlou2 good ? Well, because there's a huge difference, devil may cry is an action based game, whether the story is good or not is just secondary it's all about good action and smooth gameplay, that's what u look for in a game like devil may cry so at the end of the say u finish the game and u might say something like "eh, it was good"... But tlou2 is a story based game with a terrible story, the action and smooth gameplay and although it's very important it cannot be even slightly as important as the story, because this is what u expect before playing tlou2, so at the end of the day u might finish the game but u can't go without mentioning how terrible the story is and that's because u were there for the story it self, and it was garbage. so the fact that they ignored this point and game the title to tlou2 is very unfair especially for ghost of tsushima, a game that nailed every aspect even the secondary ones, whether it's the story, the gameplay, the world or the graphics everything in at least a 9 in that game. Not only thid but the people even voted for it and not for tlou2... tlou2 case proved to me that reviews and awards are something i should totally ignore, GOTY 2020 was a game made by people who didnt do their homework.
just proveit
just proveit Před měsícem
so the tlou1 story was about hero Joel schooled the evil Firefly? hmm.....
Avionics studio
Avionics studio Před měsícem
Here's my own point first off Ellie has always be gay if u played the dlc (which is Canon btw) u would know this. Second the title to say Joel did nothing wrong like his some goodie to shoe is complete bs like u said Joel condemned all humanity to suffer in the hands of other ruthless human beings and the infected all to save one live from a moral stand point that is bad a million lives is geater than one single and we also have Joel perspective a man who doesn't want to lose his daughter so he does what few individuals would do condemned all of humanity to save a single life and guess what his actions in the fist game is what got him killed like the old saying goes actions have consequences. to Put it simply he did do something wrong and also this title is confusing ur putting Joel in a pedestal where he doesn't belong acting like his death was just for shock value and has nothing to do with him literally killing Abby dad even his flash back tells u this
crazyinsane500
crazyinsane500 Před měsícem
So Joel was responsible for the Serephites and Rattlers existing, eh? I'm just amazed at how shitty and stupid a take this was. It's bad enough when people quote Druckmann himself for the "Joel doomed humanity" line, but to say something so untrue and with no basis in *either* game, or any form of lore, or any outside source? That's impressive.
ryley mabbott
ryley mabbott Před měsícem
Shit points
firedrake110
firedrake110 Před měsícem
There's nothing quite like pissing all over your legacy for cash. You make a masterpiece, and all of a sudden you're allowed to put more of yourself into your next work. Problem is, nobody fucking liked you, Neil - they liked what you made while under heavy scrutiny, you fucking nob
Blueshellhater
Blueshellhater Před měsícem
Considering this, Last of Us 2 is even dumber. Abby convinces her father to kill a child for a cure and wants to avenge his death. Joel wants to prevent the death of a loved one and kills because if that. So Abby is ok with killing somebody unknown but gets furious when a loved one dies. Kinda like Joel huh? So blaming Joel doesn’t make sense because then they would have to judge Abby exactly the same. I don’t think they do that.
ChunkyReveiws
ChunkyReveiws Před měsícem
It kills me when people say Joel was a badguy he was meant to die like he did......okay then, let's have rick grimes get his head beat in but by terminus garrets daughter.
cassels23
cassels23 Před měsícem
When I was playing a game I always got the impression that the only person that was 110 sultan that she would cure are provided vaccine was the 1 doctor no one else really seem to be that sure it would work and they were all just really hoping that it would and cures and Vaccines don't really work that way
Trevor Phillips
Trevor Phillips Před měsícem
Drinker, were you coming off a cold here? Your voice sounds a bit ragged. Or more likely, did you just chug a bottle of whiskey before recording your dialog?
JO
JO Před měsícem
The best solution in my opinion would be to let her grow up, so that her brain is developed enough to then decide for herself what SHE thinks is right with HER life. That's the only morally just way to deal w/ it. Again imo that is.
Reid Meinert
Reid Meinert Před měsícem
“ElLiE’s GaY bY tHe WaY”
Keith Becknell
Keith Becknell Před měsícem
If you want to read a story that's in a league of its own you should read the berserk manga or watch the movies. The original 97' Movie is on CSshows and the trilogy remake is on Netflix. I recommend watching the Netflix trilogy movies because the 97' version leaves out some important scenes from the manga. Please please PLEASE watch it and review it. Do this for a dedicated fan of yours. If you watch it from beginning to end I promise you won't regret it.
Astral Lexicon
Astral Lexicon Před měsícem
So to answer your question in the opening about nut allergies, you should read/listen to the Coddling of the American Mind by Jonathan Haidt. A rather depressing, but enlightening book about how we ended up in the Cult of Safety-ism (and Woke-ism for that matter) that we live in today. The semi-short answer is that, a handful of kids died via peanut allergy a few decades ago, and this scared the shit of the parents, who were already being fast-tracked by the ubiquity of the media to believe the civilized world is a dangerous and death-filled hellscape with hazards waiting around every corner. So, to avoid the possibility of accidentally killing a child who may have had an unknown nut allergy, it became of paramount importance to safeguard any and all child-filled places from exposure to nuts. Problem is, kids need to naturally encounter things like peanuts in order to build up immunity/tolerance to them, so they can have a Reese's cup when they grow up. Same thing with diseases (stick a kid in a bubble, and you don't do the kid any favors in staying healthy). So, take nuts out of the equation, and the body never gets to encounter them, and thus they are more vulnerable to the potentially harmful effects of nuts. Conclusion: peanut allergies proliferated in kids when they were robbed of the ability to acclimatize to them. (Parallel Conclusion: These lockdowns, masks, and social distancing measures are going fuck us over for years to come.)
JD RIB
JD RIB Před měsícem
I dont know I liked TLOU2 as well, its not like the game lacks in ambiguity. I mean you hate Abby with all your heart, but then you see her point of view and kinda get attached to her, I thought it was pretty powerful. Also who cares if Ellie is gay, some people are gay. It is good for the story for her to have a love interest, what does it matter whether its a guy or a girl ? Of course its sad to lose Joel but its also a great narrative motivation for Ellie to take action. I enjoyed the game, and I dont think I am the only one.
newtona1
newtona1 Před měsícem
So if Joel has killed Ellie, she wouldn't have grown up to be gay and spawn an awful sequel? Joel..... you made the wrong choice! And you paid the price..... horrifically
John Notmylastname
John Notmylastname Před měsícem
I will always be completely dumbfounded and disappointed that they decided to take one of the most incredible video game experiences and story/characters and take a dump all over it. I will never forget the first one and I’m trying my best to forget the second one ever happened. I would love to have been a fly on the wall in the Sony conference room when ND finally revealed what they were doing with the tons of cash they threw at them.
brixette des mit
brixette des mit Před měsícem
Peanut oil is used in vaccines, thats how babies can be violently allergic to something they've never eaten.
Dave Velzen
Dave Velzen Před měsícem
And by the way the game doesn’t portray Joel as a psychopath, it portrays that in a apocalyptic world filled with Violence there are no heroes, no good or bad guys. And who cares that Ellie is gay? In a post apocalyptic world zombies only eat gay people ofcourse, so with no gays being alive you’re surviving gay zombies? Normally i like your video’s but this one ain’t it mate.
Dave Velzen
Dave Velzen Před měsícem
TLOU2 is a great game, you’re free to disagree but it just seems like people are mentally incapable to understand this game. It might not be the game everybody wanted, but it’s still one of the best games ever made
Rhyas9
Rhyas9 Před měsícem
Ellie's what? Ellie's shit now. That's what.
Rob Irvine
Rob Irvine Před měsícem
Sigh... the reason you didn't hear about nut allergies when you were a kid was because... there was no internet.. Do people ever wonder why they never heard of anything else when they were a kid that they heard about online?
I'm Todd Howard and I made Skyrim fridge edition
Well I don't know man, Joel was also a pretty big asshole against clementine
NauticalPhoenix
NauticalPhoenix Před měsícem
Wow. He completely missed the mark on the sequel.
Jared Poon
Jared Poon Před měsícem
I will say that when I was a kid (1990s kid), I was one of only a few people who had nut allergies in my circle of friends. I had to be very careful about what I ate, and there wasn't a lot of packaging being super obvious about whether something had nuts. Now, however, it feels like nut allergies are way more common. And packaging lists the "made in a nut-free facility."
Pato Potato
Pato Potato Před měsícem
Star Trek was really good with it. The pilot episode for the original series had me ask the same question over and over again for a few days. It's on Netflix. Highly recommend.
Notably tall individual
Notably tall individual Před měsícem
I loved the gameplay of tlou2 but I'm not sure how I feel about the story, I liked a good 60-70% of it, but my feelings for the rest ranges from disappointment to annoyance, the game had good ideas, and if it pulled them off it would be up there with tlou, I liked how we in a conversation we learn there were others before Ellie that were immune and that died from the same surgery but the fireflies failed to make a cure, but the head surgeon said he had it right this time, if that could have been pulled off better along with the plot the game would have deserved a goty award, I enjoyed the game, but like bricky said a few bad apples spoil the bunch
RosyBrown08
RosyBrown08 Před měsícem
Ellie is a Jon Snow. Random I know but I compare them two cause they both have dumb heroic nature where without thinking if they have to risk their life for even strangers they would. Cause they believe that the right thing to do. Which Jon has done many times in the book and show. Both very very stubborn. Where you can’t talk them out a idea. If you do you are very very lucky. Even if the fireflies told Ellie that she would have to die to save the world, without think she will agree, not realise how that would hurt Joel. In last of us part 2, just from her journey to abbey and back, she realising step by step that what Joel did she would do the same, cause If Dina was in the same situation of Ellie in the past. No doubt about it she would do same of what Joel did. Last of Us 1 and 2 are both equally incredible games where I will keep on playing for years. I cannot wait for the TV series
Endless Waffles
Endless Waffles Před měsícem
Really great game! Glad they didn't make a sequel...
Random Centurion
Random Centurion Před měsícem
True. I've heard rumors of some big-budget fanfiction, but it's kind of edgy and for some reason the author kills off Joel for his creepy OC. Meh, probably best not to think about it.
ASMR Artists
ASMR Artists Před měsícem
The needs of the many does not outweigh the needs of the few when those needs infringe on your God given liberty and freedom and the right to choose your own path in life. Murdering 1 person to save 10,000 is still murder and still wrong. When you can justify taking away 1 persons freedom or even their life your 1 big step closer to justifying doing the exact same thing to the "many".
Creative Consciousness
Creative Consciousness Před měsícem
Nut allergies: hypersensitive immune systems as a consequence of excessive vaccination
Joao Gabriel
Joao Gabriel Před měsícem
It's a little out of talk, but I'll ask any way, what if we use the name Abby as term for a violent women who always try to be the victim?
Teefsh
Teefsh Před měsícem
Peanut proteins in vaccines back in the 90's are causing all the peanut allergies. Look into it sir.
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